Some Questions to Ask at the Presentation

Start off by asking how long will the presentation last?

The offer says about two hours. Remember when you get to your cheap destination you will have to go through the presentation again.

When you are at the presentation abroad of course it will be much longer, at least three hours. So now you are going to be subjected to the high pressure sales for a total of five hours. And that is if they keep to time. Start objecting to things and you will find it takes a lot longer. Some people reckon it can take as long as eight hours when you are abroad. Ten hours to show you a holiday? It might take ten hours to persuade you something you don't want to buy of course.

Ask if it is timeshare. They will tell you at the presentation as they do on the telephone that it isn't. Brave customers will point out that timeshare is regulated at European level to ensure customers are predicted - with for example a cooling off period. So what they are selling you is unregulated. Ask what regulations apply to holiday clubs.

Why does it need to be a couple? You will note during the presentation that you are never left alone with each other. They don't want you conferring of course. But if you came separately then you could always say "I need to ask my wife/husband", and not commit yourself. No good to them at all.

Why do they describe themselves as a travel company? They aren't of course - travel companies sell travel. They say they want to show you a fantastic holiday and then you will come back and recommend it to all your friends. It is cobblers of course. What they want to do is get you into the clutches of their sales staff and sell you Club Sunterra. Calling themselves a travel company obscures this.

The letter - which ought to show their ATOL and ABTA numbers and doesn't - ask why not - says "We take pride in offering you only the best in luxurious self-catering accommodation throughout Europe". So ask them if they sell ANYTHING THAT IS NOT Club Sunterra. So all the best in luxurious self catering is Club Sunterra? Tony Blair go with them on holiday then?

Ask if any well known holiday companies use their accommodation. They will probably mention Thomas Cook. Ask if they still send people to Sunterra presentations. Thomas Cook had so many complaints they stopped doing it.

You wont be presented with your holiday by the way, at least not until you have endured the sales patter for two hours.

Why do they need to get you into their premises to do this? Why can't they just send you some brochures? You don't buy a package holiday like that You go to a travel agent and choose from some brochures. People are so nice they stay and listen to this and nod. Remember these people are highly trained sales people. Another reason is that these unregulated deals have to be done on business premises. if they are done in a hotel for example they can be challenged in court.
Ask if you can take the contract away and let your lawyer examine it. Of course you can't. Can you imagine spending a huge amount of money on a holiday club and not letting your solicitor examine the contract? So what do they say? Well they will tell you this is a one off special offer and will not be repeated. It is cobblers of course. There are three/four of these meetings each week. They tell the same story to everyone. The one-off special offer.

And by the way, don't make too much of a fuss. Some of the larger gentlemen in the room are known as "clumpers" - you can work out from the name what they do.

There is another well-known timeshare/holiday club trick by the way, which is to have a competition based on the numbers on your credit card. This is just to make sure you have a credit card with you. You wont win.

What is a holiday club?

The concept of a holiday club is simple.

You buy a number of "points" and use these "points" to pay for your holiday. It avoids one of the problems of timeshare which is that you have to go back to the same place at the same time each year.

You also have to pay a maintenance fee as well as the points. It is fairly expensive but as they say the accommodation is luxurious and compares well with what you would pay for the same standard elsewhere.

So where do the problems with this concept lie?

Let's start with the basics. Here is what the Euroconsumer says:

Unlike a timeshare, a holiday or vacation club is only a means of accessing an unidentified (and sometimes non-existent) pool of accommodation. They are often sold as a way of obtaining cheap holidays with the company promising to provide a holiday reservation facility.

When holiday club memberships are sold, people are often told that they will be able to buy flights at a cheaper price than that offered anywhere else and holidays are often described as luxury breaks at discounted prices. In return, the buyer is often asked to pay a deposit plus a large fee to become a member and then a subscription every year.

And here they point out the problems:

The UK ECC receives its greatest number of enquires from people who have purchased holiday club memberships.

Many of the complaints relate to high pressure selling methods used by holiday club sellers.

So why do people complain have so many complaints?

The range of accommodation and flights actually available is much more restricted than the buyer was led to believe

The accommodation is more expensive than the seller promised

Accommodation which may have been described as luxurious, turns out to be quite basic

Flights can be expensive which with other compulsory supplements and taxes means that the holiday may be more expensive than if purchased elsewhere

Cash back deals offered as an incentive although in reality no cash back is given

Now, note this next bit.

Holiday club agreements are different from and so not protected by Timeshare legislation. This is because a holiday club agreement does not buy the right to stay in a specified property or pool of accommodation, but instead gives the option of a choice of a number of different locations where a holiday can be taken.

Because the Timeshare Directive does not cover holiday clubs, there is no right to have specific written information or the right to cancel the agreement. This also means that you can be asked to pay a deposit.

Note that again - NOT PROTECTED BY TIMESHARE LEGISLATION. So when the person who rang you, was insisting that they are not "timeshare" what they were really saying is that they are not regulated.

Other people will tell you all about it too. Let's look at what they say next.

How the Scam Works

The simple answer is that it is a scam.

And if Sunterra admit to knowing LCI Travel then they would be responsible for some of it. Sunterra can blame the agent and the agent can blame Sunterra. That way they can give the customer the runaround.

Is the holiday real?

Of course the holiday is real. They wouldn't dare con you with that one. You would soon be telling all your mates about that one and they don't want you doing that.

So first of all what is the holiday?

It is what is called in the trade a "fly-buy".

A fly-buy uses accommodation that would otherwise be vacant. You will be sent to some Sunterra accommodation somewhere, and whilst there you will be subject to another high pressure sell which you have to attend. Hidden away in the small print is a clause saying if you don't attend then you will be liable for the full cost of the holiday. The resort reps (salespeople) will be constantly at you first of all to attend and then to buy Sunterra points.

That is assuming you get the holiday. Don't imagine for example there is a chance of getting any holiday at peak periods. The accommodation is all used up then.

And of course there are some interesting side tricks. For example. Where would you like to fly from? Doncaster? err......nope.........Manchester? .........err nope.
Glasgow? You would like to fly from Glasgow - fine, plenty of flights from there.

Or the main place - which is Gatwick.

You of course think that this is your bad luck and maybe you aren't flexible enough. But after 18 months you have lost your free holiday.

There are other tricks to this one of course. Fantastic savings on luxury accommodation is part of it. Remember it would have been empty otherwise.

Flights? They are simple. Low cost flights to the Costa del Sol. Except of course you can't use those and they don't either. So your cheap holiday will work out as expensive if you had booked it yourself. Flights to the Canary Islands or Portugal? Nothing like as inexpensive as you could have got yourself from the internet. Anywhere else? There isn't anywhere else.

But we know it isn't timeshare because they tell us so - so what exactly is it they are selling?

LCI and Sunterra Travel Scam

Do you live in easy reach of Wakefield, Rotherham, or Nottingham?

Then there is a good chance you may get a telephone call from a company called LCI Travel offering you a free holiday. The cost is supposedly £34.50 each person to pay for a processing fee. They have stopped telling you that you filled in a survey and have won a prize.

For this you will get a "Two flights, plus one week's luxury self-catering accommodation in either the Canary Islands, The Balearics, Portugal, or the Costa Del Sol, plus a free category A car hire for the duration of the holiday with unlimited mileage free insurance and free collision damage waiver".

Is there a catch? Well on the face of it how could there be?

Where do you wish to start?

Let's start with LCI Travel. Are they a travel company?

Well actually despite their claims - they aren't. They are a marketing company. A travel company sells holidays. LCI Travel don't sell holidays they sell Club Sunterra. That's all.

But they said they were ABTA and ATOL and IATA registered.

Well - and get used to this - they lie. It is easily checked.

Enter their name into the ABTA website.

You can even enter their "ABTA number" which they will tell you is S203X

Certainly it looks like an ABTA number. But it does not seem to be on the ABTA database. And their free holiday booking site does not mention an ABTA number.

Their ATOL number is a different kettle of fish.

Ask them for that and they will tell you it is 4160. That is indeed an ATOL number. It belongs to a firm called Canaryroute Ltd who are a branch of Sunterra.
So what is the connection between LCI Travel and Sunterra. Well as I said, they sell Club Sunterra - so nothing wrong with that.

Well actually there is. You see I asked ATOL what the connection was.

Here's what Sunterra told ATOL. (The "company" she is referring to is LCI Travel)

Having checked with Sunterra, this company is not an agent or in any way affiliated with them. We will be looking into this further.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

kind regards

Helen Creighton

ATOL Consumer Advice

Civil Aviation Authority

So here is a puzzle, LCI Travel only sells Club Sunterra and uses their ATOL number when asked for one - yet Sunterra tells the CAA that LCI Travel is not an agent or in anyway affiliated to them.

So why would they do that?

Answer in the next bulletin.

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